R. Wysong is of the negative.

D. Nemos is of the affirmative.

Both participants agree:

A. That there is a Creator that is factually, rationally, and scientifically provable

B. That materialism and evolution are factually, rationally, and scientifically false

R. Wysong proofs | D. Nemos proofs

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WYSONG comments are bordered in blue.

NEMOS comments are bordered in green.

Expand Nemos' Rebuttles ✉

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Expand Wysong's Rebuttles ✉

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1. Who or what is the Creator?

WYSONG: Who or what is the Creator?

What we can know about the Creator can only be gleaned from the creation itself, not human institutions and human books ostensibly speaking for the Creator.

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The creation is complex beyond comprehension. We don't know how anything in the natural world, including all the natural laws that govern it, could come to be.

Much less do we have any idea what the source of all this phantasmagoric reality is. We can no more comprehend it than comprehend infinity, or time without beginning or end.

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So, faced with this unknowingness, humans from the beginning of time have attempted to anthropomorphize the Creator into human forms, like all the gods that speak our language and write to us.

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But these gods are not the Creator, they are human constructs that are used by humans to rule over other humans or assume knowledge not possessed.

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We must be content with the limits of our knowing and understanding and go about the business of following our Creator-given conscience and reasoning abilities to live a life true to conscience and truth.

Since the creation does not lie, ever, truth is the best description of what the Creator is. To the extent that we seek and come to know truth is the extent to which we can know the Creator.

Anthropomorphized book-writing gods do not do.

Nemos: 

... in progress ...

NEMOS: Who or what is the Creator?

The world is not what we were told. It's a lot weirder.

If one accepts the existence of a creator, a series of other questions must certainly follow in short order – questions such as: Who is this Creator? What do they want? Why did they create us? And how can we know for sure?

Wysong: 

That does not mean those questions can be answered by humans.

Nemos: 

It wasn't, it inspired by divinity. This is evident from a study of eschatology and a deeper study of scriptural historical "superaccuracy."

Wysong: 

It's impossible to determine "superaccuracy" of history unless one is personally there to record events. No person presently on Earth was there during Bible times to determine what is or is not "superaccurate."

I agree that we can never see the universe from the creators eyes, but that does not mean the creator does not want a relationship with his children. Even a small child can lovingly tend an insect, frog, crab, puppy, kitten, etc. Though it can never understand them, fully. We will never be ON His level, so to speak – but that doesn't mean He does not have expectations, love, and righteous wrath.

Wysong: 

That is reducing the Creator to what would be expected of humans. The Creator is not human.

Logical deduction shows us that our Creator is, in many ways, more complex and even ineffable than we can ever know.

Wysong: 

Agreed that the Creator is beyond comprehension. Since the Creator is ineffable, an effable book cannot prove otherwise.

The language and assumptions in the position you outlined reduce the Creator to a human-like being.

Nemos: 

See above, and yes – ineffable is a decent word to describe scripture, it's truly beyond human comprehension fully. A lifetime of study continues to reveal more nuance to the student. One can never know it all, only grow continually closer in relationship to the ineffable one may never understand – yet be blessed by.

Wysong: 

If scripture is from the Creator and necessary for all humans, it would be comprehensible to all. It is not. Read for what it says, rather than what one wants to believe it says to comport with a preconception of a human-like Creator, that reading proves it could not be from the Creator of truth and justice.

Ironically the creator's own Son reduced himself to a human-like being, toured the region raising the dead (himself included) and performing miracles of similar sort.

Wysong: 

Since Jesus is considered the same as the Bible god, that would mean the unknowable Creator became a knowable human. That contradicts the Creator's unknowability.

The Bible is filled with such insoluble oxymorons.

History records it. It happened. He was real. Examples: A, B. It's funny because many believe Jesus never even existed (showing they've not actually researched Him or asked historians) and was just a new incarnation of various sun gods over history.

Wysong: 

Well, if a person researches historians other than those protecting that person's religious beliefs, those historians conclude Jesus is of questionable historicity and certainly did not exist as a supernatural god. They contend the Jesus god was a fabrication the Romans devised to fit with pagan beliefs and create Roman god-man emperors to consolidate power in a church-state union. Further detailed in my position #5.

However, our creator is also a loving God with a purpose and plan for His creation.

Wysong: 

That's a religious claim, not a fact. Humans are created with free will and thus may not abide by a "plan" outlined in a man-made religious book. The only plan we can know is the direction given by conscience, reason, experience, and truth.

It was not made randomly, because we are the only habitable planet in the universe – and we are the geocentric center of the universe. And in this center, we – mankind, are the superior and dominant species

Wysong: 

There are reasons to believe in geocentrism but there is no proof we are the only habitable planet.

Humans are superior to some creatures in some respects, but inferior to many creatures in many respects such as flight, hearing, sight, strength, speed, endurance, digestion, hunting skills, ability to withstand extreme environmental conditions, procreative ability, adaptability, etc.

Nemos: 

If the creator does not care, why are we at the center? Why does history record the events of His holy word – such as the flood, which could not possibly have happened without divine circumstance (Hydroplate theory is what truly happened during the flood, and the waters above) The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus? It was not made randomly, because we are the only habitable planet in the universe – and we are the geocentric center of the universe. And in this center, we – mankind, are the superior and dominant species

Wysong: 

All those religious claims presume that for which there is no proof.

We do not and probably cannot know if the Creator "cares" as humans do. We are created with free will, conscience, and reasoning and have chosen to come to Earth to grow as better beings using those Creator-given faculties. That should be enough.

We don't need to be the only habitable planet or the center of the universe in order to fulfill our purpose here on Earth. (This does not imply that modern cosmology and cosmogony are true. They are not.)

Our purpose is not to come to Earth to dig through caves and pour over arcane writings to try to determine how to live and how to worship whatever egoistic god shows up on a stone tablet somewhere.

(Aside from our UNNatural competition – the Nephilim.)

Wysong: 

How does one meet a Nephilim to evaluate him, her, it?

Nemos: 

Your local Synagogue (Demogue of Sin) of Satan – Ever met an Edomite?

Wysong: 

If you are saying Jews who go to synagogues are Nephilim and Satanic, I have met Jews. They did not kill nor cannibalize me.

Jews in a synagogue do not prove that the Bible was the product of the Creator.

Edomites probably read about their god in their holy books and conclude similar nasty things about your religion.

One might say, with sincerity, based on these facts – that we are the apple of the creators eye, His greatest piece of art on a huge canvas filled with beauty. His highest form of life on His creation. Caretakers of His Garden paradise.

Wysong: 

Those "facts" and claims need to be detailed and proven. The Creator cannot be diminished by anthropomorphism–attributing human characteristics to that which is not human: "His," "apple of the Creator's eye," book writing, etc.

Nemos: 

It can be shown that He has sent messages (and messengers) throughout human history to guide His children towards the nobler path, salvation and repentance of evil. I believe those messengers were sent (the prophets, Angels, and His own son in mortal form, Jesus Christ) to convince us to choose him of our own volition.

Wysong: 

Truth, not belief, should be our beginning point and goal. All the above is based on a priori religious belief backed by claims that cannot be proven.

I believe that it can be shown that He has sent messages (and messengers) throughout human history to guide His children towards the nobler path, salvation and repentance of evil. I believe those messengers were sent (the prophets, Angels, and His own son in mortal form, Yeshuah – Jesus Christ) to convince us to choose him of our own volition.

Wysong: 

More religious belief. Waiting for proof.

Messengers are not needed to listen to our own Creator-given conscience guiding us to a more noble life.

Jesus is a questionable, not a proven historical figure. See 5. Does Jesus prove the Bible is from the Creator?

Nemos: 

Proof (Navigate to How to prove Which God is Real? Section) , and Yes, Jesus was the most proven historical figure in human history. Moreso than anyone else who ever lived by every metric of evidence anthropologists, historians, and archeologists would use to build the case for anyone. For example, we have far more proof for Jesus than for Julius Caesar. History records it. It happened. He was real.

Examples: A, B.

Wysong: 

Untrue. Untrue. Jesus, particularly the supernatural one, is not a proven historical figure. See 5. 5. Does Jesus prove the Bible is from the Creator?

Using deductive reasoning and the scientific method, as well as vetted historical accounts as well as current events, I will endeavor to prove this to be the case. That there is only One true God, only one Creator, and that while we cannot fully comprehend anything multiple dimensions beyond our own limited understanding – we can Trust His word is authentic and from Him.

Wysong: 

No such proof exists. Certainly not a proof that is the product of the scientific method complete with independent and dependent variables and controls.

Again, there is the admission of unknowability. That does not comport with an unknowable Creator writing a knowable book that is filled with unreason, contradictions, untruths, and ethical horrors. "Trust" does not solve that.

Nemos: 

He can be both A. Unknowable (fully) and yet B. Communicate with us, establish rules and relationship, and bless and curse and judge.

Wysong: 

Yes, I suppose that's possible for a Creator of infinite capabilities. But the Bible is certainly not the means used by the Creator to do so.

We don't need to understand His power, it still happens. The ant may not understand the child's magnifying glass, but he feels the heat if it is used to roast him. As for your understanding of scripture is not well developed,

Wysong: 

It's developed enough to see the obvious fraud. It's even more obvious than the covid, cosmology, evolution, scientism, medical, and globalist fraud we are living through.

It's developed enough to see the obvious fraud. That fraud is even more obvious than the covid, cosmology, evolution, scientism, medical, and globalist fraud we are living through.

Wysong: 

Such a conclusion could only be made by not reading the Bible or skipping over passages detailing the horrors committed by and commanded by the Bible god.

The next question in this debate will detail those horrors.

(the foundation of Western Christian Freedoms such as free speech.)

Wysong: 

You mean like, according to the Bible and Bible followers, burning witches for saying things, stoning children to death if they backtalk parents, killing any who disagree with your religion, torturing heretics who disagree with Bible interpretations, killing people who complain about starving, sending bears to tear apart young boys who say a man is bald, etc.? (Scripture citations in next topic)

Bible-based witch trials, Inquisitions, Crusades, book burnings, raping of young girls taken in conquests, slavery, etc. are not continuing to this day because the secular state, not a Bible god, stepped in to stop it.

As we will demonstrate throughout this debate – God's judgements are always just, when considered in context.

Wysong: 

Magical context again.

The God that flooded the world and killed so many people, had a parasite invasion of Nephilim "All flesh was corrupted"

Wysong: 

So the story goes, but there is no proof of a Nephilim parasite or all flesh corrupted.

hybrids running around eating each other. It was essentially a zombie apocalypse with giants. What Choice did our creator have,

Wysong: 

A Creator would have had the choice of letting people work it out using their Creator-given free will and conscience. We decided to come to Earth, to be tested, seek truth, obey conscience or suffer the consequences. We're not here to have a big Bible god wipe everyone out when we screw things up.

except to clean up our mess and start over with someone "pure in his generations?"

Wysong: 

Well, according to your Bible interpretations, we would be the progeny of those "pure in his generations."

Yet there is rampant disease, world wars, genocide, starvation, massive child trafficking, government tyranny and massacres, rampant lying, cheating, stealing, murder, violence, rape, ignorance, Lucifer worship, materialism, scientism, atheism, sexual mutilation, forced organ harvesting (a form of mercantile cannibalism), Eugenics, fake pandemics, deadly medical interventions, fake Creator religions and "holy books" ... all combined killing and maiming billions.

There is no reason to believe the bad today created by the spawn of the "pure in his generations," does not equal or exceed the bad in any time past, including when the Bible god supposedly intervened and wiped-out billions. Yet your Bible god now lets it all go on unimpeded.

It seems the Bible god was only able to do all his fantastic interventions in human affairs thousands of years ago when we have no way of proving he did anything at all.

Pretty fishy to say the least.

yet if you do not understand the full context

Wysong: 

The panacea of context again, meaning not having all the preconceived religious doctrinal beliefs that permit me to bend whatever I read into something that fits those beliefs.

– YHWH becomes a genocidal creator. Who creates and then destroys on a whim –

Wysong: 

That's exactly how the Bible reads, or the Bible god does not know how to write.

which itself would be petty and illogical for a supreme intelligence.

Wysong: 

Agreed. That's why the Creator had nothing to do with the Bible writing.

Truth comes first, not belief in a man-made book god.

I forgive your accusations against scripture and hope that we can come to understand that in this above all things, perhaps – Context is Key

Wysong: 

Context yet again. It's used by Bible apologists to solve things equivalent to making 2+2=5, black= white, no=yes, up=down, murder=compassion, torture=empathy, and love=hate.

Context, like faith, are always used like a talisman to prop up a belief and excuse any nonsense or horror attributed to the invented god of the Bible. See my #9 on faith.

YHWH Never lies. It is men who lie.

Wysong: 

Men created the Bible YHWH god. And so yes, men lie since the Bible YHWH is proven not only to not be the Creator, it is a god that lies. (See topics #3 and #4)

Our creator is incapable of it,

Wysong: 

Nature, the creation, the product of the Creator, does not lie.

The god of the Bible lies and contradicts itself. (Detailed in my response to Topic #4)

according to His own word. (Which tests true, with all the prophecy and hidden divine codes and things beyond human ability to have known without a divinely inspired author)

Wysong: 

Why would my understanding of what I read in the Bible be insufficient? I can read. I have read all of the Bible and studied all the Bible proofs long ago. I too believed at one time but changed my goal from belief to truth.

If I can't understand, what about the illiterate farmer laboring in the field day after day? Or is that where special religious leaders come to the rescue?

Humans trusting fallible humans in order to understand a human-made fiction is not the path to truth.

A small window into eternity. As the holy scriptures can be proven authentic and divinely inspired – a claim that only the Christian scriptures (the original manuscripts, not todays modern corrupted English bibles) will confirm.

Wysong: 

There are no original manuscripts of the Bible, just copies of copies of copies of noncontemporary hearsay. The Bible we do have has none of the merits being claimed.

Nemos: 

Actually this helps prove the scriptures! If the originals were here, they could have changed them as they tried numerous times. But since we are cross comparing later copies, we're able to divine the original words with supreme unerring accuracy! A divine twist of fate, perhaps – as YHWH promised to preserve His word. But not in the local bookstore! We have to dive deeper into history, comparative analysis, and closer to source texts. Of which there are. . .many.

And as they were then validated accurate by the original Christian library in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Original Manuscripts in part.

Wysong: 

There are no original manuscripts or "original Christian library," only noncontemporary hearsay writings, the least reliable of any written document. (Proofs and documentation later in my response to topic #6.)

So, the absence of an original Bible proves the Bible because self-claimed inspired people are able to "divine the original words (which don't exist) with unerring accuracy"?

That pretty much ends debate doesn't it? That combined with belief, faith, and context settles all questions just as it did during the Crusades, Inquisitions, and witch trials.

This reminds me of the billions of people who had/have belief and faith in the secular religion of government-media-medicine with high priests that divined with unerring accuracy a pandemic that never happened and injections that kill and maim rather than prevented or cured.

This is also equivalent to Catholic popes speaking ex cathedra with divine authority.

To repeat again, there are no original manuscripts of the Bible, not even in the Dead Sea caves. Everything is noncontemporary religiously motivated hearsay evidence.

In short, Our loving Creator gave us free will and has been encouraging us, begging us, commanding us, pleading with us – to use it to choose Righteousness over Evil. But as He loves us, Free will is given us as an inalienable right. We must all make the choice between Good, and Evil. Between Sin, and righteousness. This is the great test, this is the purpose of the mortal life.

Wysong: 

That does not comport with the above defense of the Bible god wiping children out when their parents use their free will.

Free will given to us by the Creator is the ability to listen to and obey or ignore our conscience and reasoning faculties– not look for religious humans or their man-made books to tell us what to do.

Nemos: 

That is the final conclusion once the proof, facts, and reason are considered. Perhaps you, too, will soon be praising YHWH's loving mercy as you come to know He is real during the course of this debate.

Wysong: 

Facts and reason prove the man-made Bible god is not the Creator.

Those who seek truth (the Creator) will come to realize the difference between truth and belief/faith.

It was not until I had the logic, reason, and evidence in the scriptures that I could fully understand the current political landscape and the Unholy war the Nephilim deep state are waging against all of hue-man kind. Now I can explain pretty much every real conspiracy in all of human history by following this war.

Wysong: 

The Bible also has illogic, unreason, and lack of evidence. Most troubles in the world are human-made problems due to people following belief and faith rather than conscience and truth. The wars, cruelty, and inhumanity by the Bible god make current events seem like child's play. (See next topic.)

I have very few questions left . . . That is the power of scripture for me, as a lifelong researcher into politics, health, conspiracies, the deep state, the new world order, etc. It was the last piece of the puzzle for me, a super-atheist at the time.

Wysong: 

Unfortunately, that is what faith and belief result in, closed minds and no questions.

I intend to explore the following realms for evidence of my position:

Anthropology (People movements)

Etymology (Language Evolution)

Prophecy (foreknowledge of events beyond human capability, including "blind" prophecies where the speaker had no idea of what they spoke.

Historical Accounts (From Famous and Not so Famous people that testify to the truth of God's impact on History)

Archeology (Hieroglyphs of every ancient culture testify to my position, Megalithic structures around the world, Giants, Elongated skulls etc)

Genetics (Hybrid humanity – multiple species)

Miracles (The kind that only God could have done, such as leaving balls of pure sulphur embedded in the stone around Sodom and Gamorrah)

Government Coverups (Hiding the truth, going to war against the Christian God, YHWH. The Iraq War 2003, etc)

The Illuminati's Mystery Babylon Religion (Satanism masked as Paganism – The worlds most powerful people absolutely believe in Satan – The enemy – and follow its orders) Including Judaism, An Imposter and Deception

Hidden History (Various)

Aliens (They are real, and are fallen angels)

The Other religions (All of which were also flesh and blood mortal Nephilim "gods" pretending to be Gods)

Wysong: 

Awaiting such proofs

Nemos: 

Proofs

Wysong: 

All of that in reference to the Bible are religious doctrinal belief claims, not proof.

In summary: there is a creator, provable by the observable scientific method and reasoning.

Wysong: 

Agreed.

Equally so, there is a single true religion whose scriptures are:

Wysong: 

Disagree. The only true religion is truth since truth is what the Creator is.

Nature, the product of the Creator, never lies. Human-made religions and their holy books always do.

Nemos: 

How can you know that the Creator is Truth? Who told you this?

Wysong: 

Nobody needs to be told the obvious. Nature is the product of the Creator and it never lies. We can logically conclude that the Creator is truth, or at least is capable of it as far as we can determine from creation.

A. Divinely inspired by God himself (this book is testable)

B. Has an accurate historical account of major events, including early histories of various peoples and massive anthropological, etymological and migratory information that also checks out against history. With events like the Flood of Noah explained in the most accurate way of all the various flood myths. (which are universal because they are various perspectives of the same story, generally the local tyrant "Nephilim" demigods godkings perspective. But the actual fallout of events is best explained and in most detail by the scriptural account of ancient (moreso than heavily censored current) Christians/Hebrews. Including the explosion in population in the post flood setting)

C. Has an accurate prophetic account of major events including the secession of empires over world history, various destructions (such as Sodom and Gomorrah), Wars, and Emergences of new leaders, laws, dates, etc.

D. Yeshuah (Jesus Christ's true Hebrew Name) was a real man, he existed – and furthermore, was the divinely parented son of God himself, as part of Gods plan to redeem humanity from its mortal materialistic (sinful) natures and bring us back into alignment with our higher spiritual core selves. Something Yeshuah did, not necessarily by miracle, but by example with His life and His sacrifice – and then resurrection. His story gave mankind Hope in a world of godkings and human sacrifice and the fallen tyrant gods of the Satanic secret societies were cruelly oppressive to everyone with fear of death. His story inspired mankind to rise above their fear of Death and live for something bigger than life itself, eternity in righteousness. And that story continues to inspire people today, over 2000 years later.

E. The "Deep State" elite hate Christianity (Esp. White Christians) above all targets on earth because they serve Satan, in a direct and willing and deeply devoted manner in the higher initiations of the secret societies. Self admittedly they serve and commune with Satan. They Hate Christianity because only it is real. Every other religion on other (not moral code religions, but creationists) is the pagan Nephilim's perspective. Their story is universal and basically the same story. "wisdom serpents" or some variation, a flood, giants eating or ruling over humans, etc.

The deep states entire religious code actually is built upon the Teachings of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil (Kaballah and the problem reaction solution techniques they employ to control)

and worship of the fallen angels and their demigod tyrant king of the FIRST one world government, Nimrod. Builder of the Tower of Babel – whom they seek to mimic and use transhumanism to self ascend to demigod status like Nimrod did (who BECAME a giant but I born with those genes) and unite his one world religion once more. They deify and revere Nimrod, they want to be him.

F. The Fallen Angels of Genesis 6, (the entire "his story" that was covered up and censored from the Bible, also – about 1/3 of the bible was removed) are the very same "Aliens" of today. They aren't from outer space, and they've been here before. It didn't work out very well for us.

G. A loving and kind God left instructions for people to follow, including the best moral code, dietary code, best holidays (arguably).

Wysong: 

The above will be addressed when it is presented with proofs, not religious doctrinal belief claims.

There is nothing of ethical merit in the Bible that can't be gleaned from an individual's Creator-given conscience and reason.

There is much in the Bible, as shown in my 10 positions in this debate, that is the opposite of reason, fact, love, kindness, morality, ethics, justice, empathy, and basic decency–all of which prove it is of flawed human, not Creator origin.

Attributing the Bible to the Creator is not the road to "salvation." Rather, attributing the Bible to the Creator fits the definition of sacrilege, desecration, and profanation of that which can be known of the Creator.

Nemos: 

Here are a few things "in the Bible that can't be gleaned from an individual's Creator-given conscience and reason."

Wysong: 

There is nothing in terms of a person's ethics and morality in the below that can't be derived from reason and conscience.

There are specific historical truths, ongoing religious Seedwars against you by entire people groups you don't even know, and accurate predictions of future events with insight into modern politics (The Time of Tribulation is Nigh). I realize this is a lot, and it requires many hours of research to validate.

Wysong: 

Tell that to the farmer in the field working dawn to dusk. Or is the Bible only for modern humans with the leisure to conjure any nonsense about god they want.

I promise it will be worth the time. This is a debate and I am at begrudged to be as short and to the point as I can.

All of this, as well as a fixed, anchored moral code that is not subject to the post modernist world view of subjective morality.

Without a moral anchor, you cannot have morality. As People's hearts are wicked by default

Wysong: 

Inherent wickedness is a religious doctrine designed to make people reliant on religions. Nonreligious people and people who have never heard of the Bible can be righteous.

and as we can see with our modern college kids, morality is not a fixed point without God.

Wysong: 

The fact that people often do not obey their inner voice is not reason to think it is not there. It is innate and the reason that any society can have any semblance of order and survivability.

As the next section demonstrates, the Bible is a book of indefensible amorality, immorality, injustice, and horrors.

The moral anchor is conscience and reason, not a book, like the Bible, telling people they can stone to death disobedient children, rape young girls ... ad nauseum.

Again, to accuse God and His word of the evils you say is to do so from a position of ignorance and without context.

Wysong: 

Context again, the magic bullet making anything, even gross immorality and inhumanity, equal to love and justice.

As I will prove in any specific accusations you may try to imply. Essentially you're smearing YHWH without evidence. What Evils has YHWH done?

Wysong: 

Some have been mentioned above, more are detailed with Bible citations in the next topic.

As for the definition of sacrilege: Desecration, profanation, misuse, or theft of that which can be known of the Creator.

So by it's very definition, which you kindly provided – Only a God that has something that can be known about Him can be profaned against. If your nebulous, "ineffable" and unknowable creator has nothing that we can know about him. He cannot be profaned by the very definition of the word.

Wysong: 

As repeated often, what can be know about the Creator is only gleaned from the creation itself. Direct communication from the Creator would be possible considering the Creator's apparent limitless power, but nobody has ever been able to prove such communication.

You said early on that the Creator was ineffable and unknowable. I agreed, other than what we can deduce from the nature itself-- which the Bible is not a part of since it is a human creation.

I know much about our creator. I'd love to share it with you once you come over.

Wysong: 

I appreciate your desire to save me. But I am trying to save you.