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7/11/2023
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​Let me preface this with the fact that people turn to religions out of humility and the goodness in their hearts. They understand they did not create themselves nor the wonders of our world. They feel the need to be thankful. They also feel the pull of conscience to do what is right and decent and feel guilty for not doing so. They also fear death and want that fear removed.
Religions and holy books claim to know who and what the Creator is and how to communicate with it. They also remove the difficulty of following conscience by replacing it with a to-do and not to do list. By obeying that list people are promised the Creator's favor and life after mortal death. But notice what has taken place. People have surrendered, given up on themselves, and turned things over to others. A person's own reasoning abilities and conscience are replaced with beliefs given to them by someone else. Their minds have, in effect, become owned by other humans. No matter our good intentions, the surrender of mind to the beliefs of others is not, and never has been, the answer to our individual problems or those plaguing the world. https://www.asifthinkingmatters.com/blog/proof-of-the-cause-of-all-human-made-problems For example, people the world over are surrendering their minds to a medical-industrial- governmental-media cabal because of fear of a pandemic. It's a close-minded religious-like obeisance, even consenting to censorship of opposing facts and science. The results are not only disastrous, they're diabolical. https://www.asifthinkingmatters.com/blog/category/covid-19 Historically, god-religions and holy books are responsible for like results: Inquisitions, Crusades, witch trials, book burnings, etc. If we take back our minds and do the investigation we are obligated to do, the covid cabal is exposed as inconsistent with truth and not the means to freedom and a just and healthy world. Likewise, if we take back our minds from religions, we will discover the same. For example, the Abrahamic religions--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--demand the belief that the Bible, in whole or in part, is the word of God. To any thinking person not already committed to this belief, there are many problems. https://www.asifthinkingmatters.com/solving-the-big-questions-third-edition/category/religion Most people would agree that the Creator of our reality, a reality that does not lie, would also manifest truth, justice, ethics, empathy, rationality, and all the attributes our Creator-given conscience tells us is right and good. It is for these reasons I have consented to an online written debate with a committed Bible-religion believer. 7/10/2023
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R. Wysong is of the negative.
D. Nemos is of the affirmative.
Both participants agree: A. That there is a Creator that is factually, rationally, and scientifically provable B. That materialism and evolution are factually, rationally, and scientifically false R. Wysong proofs | D. Nemos proofs
WYSONG comments are bordered in blue.
NEMOS comments are bordered in green.
1. Who or what is the Creator?
WYSONG: Who or what is the Creator?
What we can know about the Creator can only be gleaned from the creation itself, not human institutions and human books ostensibly speaking for the Creator.  ⌕ Click to enlarge The creation is complex beyond comprehension. We don't know how anything in the natural world, including all the natural laws that govern it, could come to be. Much less do we have any idea what the source of all this phantasmagoric reality is. We can no more comprehend it than comprehend infinity, or time without beginning or end.  ⌕ Click to enlarge So, faced with this unknowingness, humans from the beginning of time have attempted to anthropomorphize the Creator into human forms, like all the gods that speak our language and write to us.  ⌕ Click to enlarge But these gods are not the Creator, they are human constructs that are used by humans to rule over other humans or assume knowledge not possessed.  ⌕ Click to enlarge We must be content with the limits of our knowing and understanding and go about the business of following our Creator-given conscience and reasoning abilities to live a life true to conscience and truth. Since the creation does not lie, ever, truth is the best description of what the Creator is. To the extent that we seek and come to know truth is the extent to which we can know the Creator. Anthropomorphized book-writing gods do not do.
Nemos:
... in progress ...
NEMOS: Who or what is the Creator?
The world is not what we were told. It's a lot weirder. If one accepts the existence of a creator, a series of other questions must certainly follow in short order – questions such as: Who is this Creator? What do they want? Why did they create us? And how can we know for sure?
Wysong:
That does not mean those questions can be answered by humans.
Nemos:
It wasn't, it inspired by divinity. This is evident from a study of eschatology and a deeper study of scriptural historical "superaccuracy."
Wysong:
It's impossible to determine "superaccuracy" of history unless one is personally there to record events. No person presently on Earth was there during Bible times to determine what is or is not "superaccurate."
I agree that we can never see the universe from the creators eyes, but that does not mean the creator does not want a relationship with his children. Even a small child can lovingly tend an insect, frog, crab, puppy, kitten, etc. Though it can never understand them, fully. We will never be ON His level, so to speak – but that doesn't mean He does not have expectations, love, and righteous wrath.
Wysong:
That is reducing the Creator to what would be expected of humans. The Creator is not human.
Logical deduction shows us that our Creator is, in many ways, more complex and even ineffable than we can ever know.
Wysong:
Agreed that the Creator is beyond comprehension. Since the Creator is ineffable, an effable book cannot prove otherwise.The language and assumptions in the position you outlined reduce the Creator to a human-like being.
Nemos:
See above, and yes – ineffable is a decent word to describe scripture, it's truly beyond human comprehension fully. A lifetime of study continues to reveal more nuance to the student. One can never know it all, only grow continually closer in relationship to the ineffable one may never understand – yet be blessed by.
Wysong:
If scripture is from the Creator and necessary for all humans, it would be comprehensible to all. It is not. Read for what it says, rather than what one wants to believe it says to comport with a preconception of a human-like Creator, that reading proves it could not be from the Creator of truth and justice.
Ironically the creator's own Son reduced himself to a human-like being, toured the region raising the dead (himself included) and performing miracles of similar sort.
Wysong:
Since Jesus is considered the same as the Bible god, that would mean the unknowable Creator became a knowable human. That contradicts the Creator's unknowability.The Bible is filled with such insoluble oxymorons. History records it. It happened. He was real. Examples: A, B. It's funny because many believe Jesus never even existed (showing they've not actually researched Him or asked historians) and was just a new incarnation of various sun gods over history.
Wysong:
Well, if a person researches historians other than those protecting that person's religious beliefs, those historians conclude Jesus is of questionable historicity and certainly did not exist as a supernatural god. They contend the Jesus god was a fabrication the Romans devised to fit with pagan beliefs and create Roman god-man emperors to consolidate power in a church-state union. Further detailed in my position #5.
However, our creator is also a loving God with a purpose and plan for His creation.
Wysong:
That's a religious claim, not a fact. Humans are created with free will and thus may not abide by a "plan" outlined in a man-made religious book. The only plan we can know is the direction given by conscience, reason, experience, and truth.
It was not made randomly, because we are the only habitable planet in the universe – and we are the geocentric center of the universe. And in this center, we – mankind, are the superior and dominant species
Wysong:
There are reasons to believe in geocentrism but there is no proof we are the only habitable planet.Humans are superior to some creatures in some respects, but inferior to many creatures in many respects such as flight, hearing, sight, strength, speed, endurance, digestion, hunting skills, ability to withstand extreme environmental conditions, procreative ability, adaptability, etc.
Nemos:
If the creator does not care, why are we at the center? Why does history record the events of His holy word – such as the flood, which could not possibly have happened without divine circumstance (Hydroplate theory is what truly happened during the flood, and the waters above) The life, death, and resurrection of Jesus? It was not made randomly, because we are the only habitable planet in the universe – and we are the geocentric center of the universe. And in this center, we – mankind, are the superior and dominant species
Wysong:
All those religious claims presume that for which there is no proof.We do not and probably cannot know if the Creator "cares" as humans do. We are created with free will, conscience, and reasoning and have chosen to come to Earth to grow as better beings using those Creator-given faculties. That should be enough. We don't need to be the only habitable planet or the center of the universe in order to fulfill our purpose here on Earth. (This does not imply that modern cosmology and cosmogony are true. They are not.) Our purpose is not to come to Earth to dig through caves and pour over arcane writings to try to determine how to live and how to worship whatever egoistic god shows up on a stone tablet somewhere. (Aside from our UNNatural competition – the Nephilim.)
Wysong:
How does one meet a Nephilim to evaluate him, her, it?
Nemos:
Your local Synagogue (Demogue of Sin) of Satan – Ever met an Edomite?
Wysong:
If you are saying Jews who go to synagogues are Nephilim and Satanic, I have met Jews. They did not kill nor cannibalize me.Jews in a synagogue do not prove that the Bible was the product of the Creator. Edomites probably read about their god in their holy books and conclude similar nasty things about your religion. One might say, with sincerity, based on these facts – that we are the apple of the creators eye, His greatest piece of art on a huge canvas filled with beauty. His highest form of life on His creation. Caretakers of His Garden paradise.
Wysong:
Those "facts" and claims need to be detailed and proven. The Creator cannot be diminished by anthropomorphism–attributing human characteristics to that which is not human: "His," "apple of the Creator's eye," book writing, etc.
Nemos:
It can be shown that He has sent messages (and messengers) throughout human history to guide His children towards the nobler path, salvation and repentance of evil. I believe those messengers were sent (the prophets, Angels, and His own son in mortal form, Jesus Christ) to convince us to choose him of our own volition.
Wysong:
Truth, not belief, should be our beginning point and goal. All the above is based on a priori religious belief backed by claims that cannot be proven.
I believe that it can be shown that He has sent messages (and messengers) throughout human history to guide His children towards the nobler path, salvation and repentance of evil. I believe those messengers were sent (the prophets, Angels, and His own son in mortal form, Yeshuah – Jesus Christ) to convince us to choose him of our own volition.
Wysong:
More religious belief. Waiting for proof.Messengers are not needed to listen to our own Creator-given conscience guiding us to a more noble life. Jesus is a questionable, not a proven historical figure. See 5. Does Jesus prove the Bible is from the Creator?
Nemos:
Proof (Navigate to How to prove Which God is Real? Section) , and Yes, Jesus was the most proven historical figure in human history. Moreso than anyone else who ever lived by every metric of evidence anthropologists, historians, and archeologists would use to build the case for anyone. For example, we have far more proof for Jesus than for Julius Caesar. History records it. It happened. He was real.Examples: A, B.
Wysong:
Untrue. Untrue. Jesus, particularly the supernatural one, is not a proven historical figure. See 5. 5. Does Jesus prove the Bible is from the Creator?
Using deductive reasoning and the scientific method, as well as vetted historical accounts as well as current events, I will endeavor to prove this to be the case. That there is only One true God, only one Creator, and that while we cannot fully comprehend anything multiple dimensions beyond our own limited understanding – we can Trust His word is authentic and from Him.
Wysong:
No such proof exists. Certainly not a proof that is the product of the scientific method complete with independent and dependent variables and controls.Again, there is the admission of unknowability. That does not comport with an unknowable Creator writing a knowable book that is filled with unreason, contradictions, untruths, and ethical horrors. "Trust" does not solve that.
Nemos:
He can be both A. Unknowable (fully) and yet B. Communicate with us, establish rules and relationship, and bless and curse and judge.
Wysong:
Yes, I suppose that's possible for a Creator of infinite capabilities. But the Bible is certainly not the means used by the Creator to do so.
We don't need to understand His power, it still happens. The ant may not understand the child's magnifying glass, but he feels the heat if it is used to roast him. As for your understanding of scripture is not well developed,
Wysong:
It's developed enough to see the obvious fraud. It's even more obvious than the covid, cosmology, evolution, scientism, medical, and globalist fraud we are living through.
It's developed enough to see the obvious fraud. That fraud is even more obvious than the covid, cosmology, evolution, scientism, medical, and globalist fraud we are living through.
Wysong:
Such a conclusion could only be made by not reading the Bible or skipping over passages detailing the horrors committed by and commanded by the Bible god.The next question in this debate will detail those horrors. (the foundation of Western Christian Freedoms such as free speech.)
Wysong:
You mean like, according to the Bible and Bible followers, burning witches for saying things, stoning children to death if they backtalk parents, killing any who disagree with your religion, torturing heretics who disagree with Bible interpretations, killing people who complain about starving, sending bears to tear apart young boys who say a man is bald, etc.? (Scripture citations in next topic)Bible-based witch trials, Inquisitions, Crusades, book burnings, raping of young girls taken in conquests, slavery, etc. are not continuing to this day because the secular state, not a Bible god, stepped in to stop it. As we will demonstrate throughout this debate – God's judgements are always just, when considered in context.
Wysong:
Magical context again.
The God that flooded the world and killed so many people, had a parasite invasion of Nephilim "All flesh was corrupted"
Wysong:
So the story goes, but there is no proof of a Nephilim parasite or all flesh corrupted.
hybrids running around eating each other. It was essentially a zombie apocalypse with giants. What Choice did our creator have,
Wysong:
A Creator would have had the choice of letting people work it out using their Creator-given free will and conscience. We decided to come to Earth, to be tested, seek truth, obey conscience or suffer the consequences. We're not here to have a big Bible god wipe everyone out when we screw things up.
except to clean up our mess and start over with someone "pure in his generations?"
Wysong:
Well, according to your Bible interpretations, we would be the progeny of those "pure in his generations."Yet there is rampant disease, world wars, genocide, starvation, massive child trafficking, government tyranny and massacres, rampant lying, cheating, stealing, murder, violence, rape, ignorance, Lucifer worship, materialism, scientism, atheism, sexual mutilation, forced organ harvesting (a form of mercantile cannibalism), Eugenics, fake pandemics, deadly medical interventions, fake Creator religions and "holy books" ... all combined killing and maiming billions. There is no reason to believe the bad today created by the spawn of the "pure in his generations," does not equal or exceed the bad in any time past, including when the Bible god supposedly intervened and wiped-out billions. Yet your Bible god now lets it all go on unimpeded. It seems the Bible god was only able to do all his fantastic interventions in human affairs thousands of years ago when we have no way of proving he did anything at all. Pretty fishy to say the least. yet if you do not understand the full context
Wysong:
The panacea of context again, meaning not having all the preconceived religious doctrinal beliefs that permit me to bend whatever I read into something that fits those beliefs.
– YHWH becomes a genocidal creator. Who creates and then destroys on a whim –
Wysong:
That's exactly how the Bible reads, or the Bible god does not know how to write.
which itself would be petty and illogical for a supreme intelligence.
Wysong:
Agreed. That's why the Creator had nothing to do with the Bible writing.Truth comes first, not belief in a man-made book god. I forgive your accusations against scripture and hope that we can come to understand that in this above all things, perhaps – Context is Key
Wysong:
Context yet again. It's used by Bible apologists to solve things equivalent to making 2+2=5, black= white, no=yes, up=down, murder=compassion, torture=empathy, and love=hate.Context, like faith, are always used like a talisman to prop up a belief and excuse any nonsense or horror attributed to the invented god of the Bible. See my #9 on faith. YHWH Never lies. It is men who lie.
Wysong:
Men created the Bible YHWH god. And so yes, men lie since the Bible YHWH is proven not only to not be the Creator, it is a god that lies. (See topics #3 and #4)
Our creator is incapable of it,
Wysong:
Nature, the creation, the product of the Creator, does not lie.The god of the Bible lies and contradicts itself. (Detailed in my response to Topic #4) according to His own word. (Which tests true, with all the prophecy and hidden divine codes and things beyond human ability to have known without a divinely inspired author)
Wysong:
Why would my understanding of what I read in the Bible be insufficient? I can read. I have read all of the Bible and studied all the Bible proofs long ago. I too believed at one time but changed my goal from belief to truth.If I can't understand, what about the illiterate farmer laboring in the field day after day? Or is that where special religious leaders come to the rescue? Humans trusting fallible humans in order to understand a human-made fiction is not the path to truth. A small window into eternity. As the holy scriptures can be proven authentic and divinely inspired – a claim that only the Christian scriptures (the original manuscripts, not todays modern corrupted English bibles) will confirm.
Wysong:
There are no original manuscripts of the Bible, just copies of copies of copies of noncontemporary hearsay. The Bible we do have has none of the merits being claimed.
Nemos:
Actually this helps prove the scriptures! If the originals were here, they could have changed them as they tried numerous times. But since we are cross comparing later copies, we're able to divine the original words with supreme unerring accuracy! A divine twist of fate, perhaps – as YHWH promised to preserve His word. But not in the local bookstore! We have to dive deeper into history, comparative analysis, and closer to source texts. Of which there are. . .many.And as they were then validated accurate by the original Christian library in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Original Manuscripts in part.
Wysong:
There are no original manuscripts or "original Christian library," only noncontemporary hearsay writings, the least reliable of any written document. (Proofs and documentation later in my response to topic #6.)So, the absence of an original Bible proves the Bible because self-claimed inspired people are able to "divine the original words (which don't exist) with unerring accuracy"? That pretty much ends debate doesn't it? That combined with belief, faith, and context settles all questions just as it did during the Crusades, Inquisitions, and witch trials. This reminds me of the billions of people who had/have belief and faith in the secular religion of government-media-medicine with high priests that divined with unerring accuracy a pandemic that never happened and injections that kill and maim rather than prevented or cured. This is also equivalent to Catholic popes speaking ex cathedra with divine authority. To repeat again, there are no original manuscripts of the Bible, not even in the Dead Sea caves. Everything is noncontemporary religiously motivated hearsay evidence. In short, Our loving Creator gave us free will and has been encouraging us, begging us, commanding us, pleading with us – to use it to choose Righteousness over Evil. But as He loves us, Free will is given us as an inalienable right. We must all make the choice between Good, and Evil. Between Sin, and righteousness. This is the great test, this is the purpose of the mortal life.
Wysong:
That does not comport with the above defense of the Bible god wiping children out when their parents use their free will.Free will given to us by the Creator is the ability to listen to and obey or ignore our conscience and reasoning faculties– not look for religious humans or their man-made books to tell us what to do.
Nemos:
That is the final conclusion once the proof, facts, and reason are considered. Perhaps you, too, will soon be praising YHWH's loving mercy as you come to know He is real during the course of this debate.
Wysong:
Facts and reason prove the man-made Bible god is not the Creator.Those who seek truth (the Creator) will come to realize the difference between truth and belief/faith. It was not until I had the logic, reason, and evidence in the scriptures that I could fully understand the current political landscape and the Unholy war the Nephilim deep state are waging against all of hue-man kind. Now I can explain pretty much every real conspiracy in all of human history by following this war.
Wysong:
The Bible also has illogic, unreason, and lack of evidence. Most troubles in the world are human-made problems due to people following belief and faith rather than conscience and truth. The wars, cruelty, and inhumanity by the Bible god make current events seem like child's play. (See next topic.)
I have very few questions left . . . That is the power of scripture for me, as a lifelong researcher into politics, health, conspiracies, the deep state, the new world order, etc. It was the last piece of the puzzle for me, a super-atheist at the time.
Wysong:
Unfortunately, that is what faith and belief result in, closed minds and no questions.
I intend to explore the following realms for evidence of my position: Anthropology (People movements) Etymology (Language Evolution) Prophecy (foreknowledge of events beyond human capability, including "blind" prophecies where the speaker had no idea of what they spoke. Historical Accounts (From Famous and Not so Famous people that testify to the truth of God's impact on History) Archeology (Hieroglyphs of every ancient culture testify to my position, Megalithic structures around the world, Giants, Elongated skulls etc) Genetics (Hybrid humanity – multiple species) Miracles (The kind that only God could have done, such as leaving balls of pure sulphur embedded in the stone around Sodom and Gamorrah) Government Coverups (Hiding the truth, going to war against the Christian God, YHWH. The Iraq War 2003, etc) The Illuminati's Mystery Babylon Religion (Satanism masked as Paganism – The worlds most powerful people absolutely believe in Satan – The enemy – and follow its orders) Including Judaism, An Imposter and Deception Hidden History (Various) Aliens (They are real, and are fallen angels) The Other religions (All of which were also flesh and blood mortal Nephilim "gods" pretending to be Gods)
Wysong:
Awaiting such proofs
Nemos:
Proofs
Wysong:
All of that in reference to the Bible are religious doctrinal belief claims, not proof.
In summary: there is a creator, provable by the observable scientific method and reasoning.
Wysong:
Agreed.
Equally so, there is a single true religion whose scriptures are:
Wysong:
Disagree. The only true religion is truth since truth is what the Creator is.Nature, the product of the Creator, never lies. Human-made religions and their holy books always do.
Nemos:
How can you know that the Creator is Truth? Who told you this?
Wysong:
Nobody needs to be told the obvious. Nature is the product of the Creator and it never lies. We can logically conclude that the Creator is truth, or at least is capable of it as far as we can determine from creation.
A. Divinely inspired by God himself (this book is testable) B. Has an accurate historical account of major events, including early histories of various peoples and massive anthropological, etymological and migratory information that also checks out against history. With events like the Flood of Noah explained in the most accurate way of all the various flood myths. (which are universal because they are various perspectives of the same story, generally the local tyrant "Nephilim" demigods godkings perspective. But the actual fallout of events is best explained and in most detail by the scriptural account of ancient (moreso than heavily censored current) Christians/Hebrews. Including the explosion in population in the post flood setting) C. Has an accurate prophetic account of major events including the secession of empires over world history, various destructions (such as Sodom and Gomorrah), Wars, and Emergences of new leaders, laws, dates, etc. D. Yeshuah (Jesus Christ's true Hebrew Name) was a real man, he existed – and furthermore, was the divinely parented son of God himself, as part of Gods plan to redeem humanity from its mortal materialistic (sinful) natures and bring us back into alignment with our higher spiritual core selves. Something Yeshuah did, not necessarily by miracle, but by example with His life and His sacrifice – and then resurrection. His story gave mankind Hope in a world of godkings and human sacrifice and the fallen tyrant gods of the Satanic secret societies were cruelly oppressive to everyone with fear of death. His story inspired mankind to rise above their fear of Death and live for something bigger than life itself, eternity in righteousness. And that story continues to inspire people today, over 2000 years later. E. The "Deep State" elite hate Christianity (Esp. White Christians) above all targets on earth because they serve Satan, in a direct and willing and deeply devoted manner in the higher initiations of the secret societies. Self admittedly they serve and commune with Satan. They Hate Christianity because only it is real. Every other religion on other (not moral code religions, but creationists) is the pagan Nephilim's perspective. Their story is universal and basically the same story. "wisdom serpents" or some variation, a flood, giants eating or ruling over humans, etc. The deep states entire religious code actually is built upon the Teachings of the knowledge of the tree of good and evil (Kaballah and the problem reaction solution techniques they employ to control) and worship of the fallen angels and their demigod tyrant king of the FIRST one world government, Nimrod. Builder of the Tower of Babel – whom they seek to mimic and use transhumanism to self ascend to demigod status like Nimrod did (who BECAME a giant but I born with those genes) and unite his one world religion once more. They deify and revere Nimrod, they want to be him. F. The Fallen Angels of Genesis 6, (the entire "his story" that was covered up and censored from the Bible, also – about 1/3 of the bible was removed) are the very same "Aliens" of today. They aren't from outer space, and they've been here before. It didn't work out very well for us. G. A loving and kind God left instructions for people to follow, including the best moral code, dietary code, best holidays (arguably).
Wysong:
The above will be addressed when it is presented with proofs, not religious doctrinal belief claims.There is nothing of ethical merit in the Bible that can't be gleaned from an individual's Creator-given conscience and reason. There is much in the Bible, as shown in my 10 positions in this debate, that is the opposite of reason, fact, love, kindness, morality, ethics, justice, empathy, and basic decency–all of which prove it is of flawed human, not Creator origin. Attributing the Bible to the Creator is not the road to "salvation." Rather, attributing the Bible to the Creator fits the definition of sacrilege, desecration, and profanation of that which can be known of the Creator.
Nemos:
Here are a few things "in the Bible that can't be gleaned from an individual's Creator-given conscience and reason."
Wysong:
There is nothing in terms of a person's ethics and morality in the below that can't be derived from reason and conscience.
There are specific historical truths, ongoing religious Seedwars against you by entire people groups you don't even know, and accurate predictions of future events with insight into modern politics (The Time of Tribulation is Nigh). I realize this is a lot, and it requires many hours of research to validate.
Wysong:
Tell that to the farmer in the field working dawn to dusk. Or is the Bible only for modern humans with the leisure to conjure any nonsense about god they want.
I promise it will be worth the time. This is a debate and I am at begrudged to be as short and to the point as I can. All of this, as well as a fixed, anchored moral code that is not subject to the post modernist world view of subjective morality. Without a moral anchor, you cannot have morality. As People's hearts are wicked by default
Wysong:
Inherent wickedness is a religious doctrine designed to make people reliant on religions. Nonreligious people and people who have never heard of the Bible can be righteous.
and as we can see with our modern college kids, morality is not a fixed point without God.
Wysong:
The fact that people often do not obey their inner voice is not reason to think it is not there. It is innate and the reason that any society can have any semblance of order and survivability.As the next section demonstrates, the Bible is a book of indefensible amorality, immorality, injustice, and horrors. The moral anchor is conscience and reason, not a book, like the Bible, telling people they can stone to death disobedient children, rape young girls ... ad nauseum. Again, to accuse God and His word of the evils you say is to do so from a position of ignorance and without context.
Wysong:
Context again, the magic bullet making anything, even gross immorality and inhumanity, equal to love and justice.
As I will prove in any specific accusations you may try to imply. Essentially you're smearing YHWH without evidence. What Evils has YHWH done?
Wysong:
Some have been mentioned above, more are detailed with Bible citations in the next topic.
As for the definition of sacrilege: Desecration, profanation, misuse, or theft of that which can be known of the Creator. So by it's very definition, which you kindly provided – Only a God that has something that can be known about Him can be profaned against. If your nebulous, "ineffable" and unknowable creator has nothing that we can know about him. He cannot be profaned by the very definition of the word.
Wysong:
As repeated often, what can be know about the Creator is only gleaned from the creation itself. Direct communication from the Creator would be possible considering the Creator's apparent limitless power, but nobody has ever been able to prove such communication.You said early on that the Creator was ineffable and unknowable. I agreed, other than what we can deduce from the nature itself-- which the Bible is not a part of since it is a human creation. I know much about our creator. I'd love to share it with you once you come over.
Wysong:
I appreciate your desire to save me. But I am trying to save you.
7/9/2023
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2. Is the Bible the source of morality and justice?
Wysong:
Is the Bible the source of morality and justice?It is unreasonable that the incomprehensible Creator of the universe could be anthropomorphized into writing a book, a book that doesn't even have any original copies.  ⌕ Click to enlarge If that is an opinion, it is the only reasonable one possible based on what we can and cannot know about the Creator which can only be inferred from the creation itself.
Nemos:
This is indeed your opinion, based on the information you have. I do not fault you for holding this opinion, but logically speaking, you're attempting to prove God is unknowable,
Wysong:
You agreed in the preliminaries to this debate that the Creator is unknowable and ineffable There is no way for us physical beings to know the Creator other than contemplating the Creation. Similarly, we cannot know and understand infinity. (documentation) To attempt it is like a dog trying to solve a math problem or a fish trying to play the piano.People go to religions and holy books because they want to understand their maker and because of fear of death. Religions claim to know what the Creator thinks and requires to enter heaven and escape hell. This mimics people relying on government like a religion and then masking up, isolating, and submitting to injections with unknown ingredients to escape the hell of a supposed Covid virus. Out of fear and ignorance, people surrender to self-claimed authorities rather than take personal responsibility to become informed. In the case of Covid, ferreting out truth amidst a sea of state-sponsored propaganda clearly reveals that it is a fraud. (documentation) In the case of the Creator, it can be easily learned on our own that the Creator exists and that we are immortal beings in a temporary mortal shell. We choose to come to Earth to learn how to become higher beings through Creator-given conscience, reason, and free will. There is thus no need for religions, holy books, or fear of death since death has been scientifically proven to just be a change back to our otherworldly spiritual being, not an end to our existence. (documentation) which discounts divine acts from what can only be God who was speaking through those acts to get us to know Him better.
Wysong:
It would need to be proven that those acts are "divine," that there could be no other cause for them, and that they could not be done by humans.The divine acts and commands described in the Bible--stoning disobedient children to death, raping young war victims, looting, killing, and torturing millions, etc. (see below Bible quotes), get us to know a creature, a man-made horror fictional creature that we should not want to know. You're almost trying to make the same argument that God is not real.
Wysong:
Correct. The invented YHWH/Jesus god of the Bible is unreal and thus capable of nothing other than what psychopathic humans have manufactured about it--laced with a few truths here and there to lend credibility like is done with any fictional story.The Creator, on the other hand, is real but has nothing to do with man-made religious books and god stories. In this paradigm, being so unknowable and without guidance as to the personality and identity of YHWH – God is neutered of having any involvement in the affairs of His creation by simple virtue of the fact we'd be too ignorant to divine the messages even if he tried to send them. But we are not, history has recorded many such miracles and divine acts.
Wysong:
The Creator is not neutered just because we can't personify it into a book writer.And why would the Creator author a book thousands of years ago when writing and publishing were in their primitive stages? Why not now with the internet, email, videos, and other efficient means of communication and verification worldwide? We don't come to Earth to spend our time trying to communicate with a Creator we left in the spirit realm. We're here to grow through physical experiences using our Creator-given free will, conscience, and reasoning powers. Documented here. Tyre and the Bible Petra and the Bible Babylon and the Bible Egypt and the Bible Sodom and Gomorrah, anyone? You can find unnaturally pure sulphur balls the size of tennis balls embedded in stone all over the place. They rained from the sky and destroyed the place, as scripture records. Or what about the Great Flood itself?
Wysong:
So what? If historical accounts prove Creator authorship, anyone who writes a history book would be a divine agent.
There are also examples of Blind Prophecies such as: Daniel 2 – The Prophetic Timeline – Nebuchadnezzar's Dream Daniel 7 – Daniel's Dream of Four Beasts  ⌕ Click to enlarge And many that are not so blind such as: The Banned Prophecy of Yeshuah (Jesus Christ) 400BC (Fulfilled)
Wysong:
All such Biblical prophesies require foreign language interpretation, historical context, original manuscripts (which do not exist), and undisputed archeology and historical proof. Nobody is qualified to draw conclusions about whether the Creator wrote a book from any of the above, particularly farmers in the field toiling from dawn to dusk to feed their families.Moreover, prophesy, even if true, is not proof of divine authorship. See Topic #7 for proof that prophesy can occur without having anything to do with a Bible-god. To say "Diverting the debate to arguments from the book itself, using hermeneutics, eschatology, history, prophesy, Bible scholars, etc. avoids the essential #1 question in this debate and are red herring logical fallacies." is to put forth ones own opinion over facts, evidence, and logical deductive reasoning while simultaneously rejecting countering evidence or reason. This is, itself, a false argument and logically fallacious.
Wysong:
Not sure what your claim is here. I have not expressed opinion. It is obvious that the Creator of infinity and the incomprehensible complexity of even the physical world cannot be reduced to a human-like creature as the Bible does.
You argue that God cannot be known because we cannot trust the Bible,
Wysong:
No. I said, and you agreed, that the Creator cannot be known. That conclusion has nothing to do with a book. The Creator cannot be known by us physical humans confined to our physical dimensions because the Creator is in an entirely different plane of some sort. A man-made book, the Bible, provides no proof otherwise.
I argue that we can trust the original scriptures (which admittedly were corrupted and perverted in modern English translations.)
Wysong:
There is no way to know what is or is not corrupted since there are no originals to compare anything to, only copies of copies of copies of noncontemporary hearsay.
In attempting to prove God is unknowable, you discount the most important witness: God himself. Whom says "Test all things; hold fast what is good." See 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
Wysong:
That's begging the question. There is no proof the Creator wrote those words. Nor do those words show any special knowledge or wisdom since everyone intuitively knows they should try to find what is true and hold to it.Moreover, what the invented god of the Bible supposedly said demonstrates contradiction since the Bible primarily demands blind belief and obedience (as you have argued), not open-minded inquiry as that quote implies. God is indeed incomprehensible, and yet, He has made outreach attempts to mankind throughout "His-Story" to understand him better, and to outline that God, or YHWH (His name) is a Just and Merciful deity, yet, Justice requires wrath, at times. And people will point to wrath to deny Mercy in our Creator, all too often. Yet it is within context that we define Justice v Tyranny, a topic we should all be all to familiar with in our own time, today.
Wysong:
Context yet again, in this case, to rescue the impossibility of painting the Bible-god as just and moral.The injustice and horrors in our world today are nothing compared to what the Bible attributes to its god. Religionists are quick to hold the secular world to high ethical, moral, and legal standards but are remiss in and oblivious to applying the same standards to their Bible-god. Diverting the debate to arguments from the book itself, using hermeneutics, eschatology, history, prophesy, Bible scholars, etc. avoids the essential #1 question in this debate and are red herring logical fallacies. Nevertheless, let's look at what the Bible says to see if it is befitting the Creator, the true source of truth, morality, and justice. Bible believers point to the Ten Commandments as the gold standard for directing our lives. They insist the Ten Commandments should be in every classroom and courtroom. However, the only things in that list having to do with morality and ethics are the prohibitions of lying, stealing, and murder. But nobody needs a book to tell them those acts are wrong. Our Creator-given conscience takes care of that and is why all civilizations prior to the Bible and those void a Bible today have such prohibitions. Everything else in the Commandments, like keeping the Sabbath, is about religious doctrines devised by the writers of the Bible (who named themselves as the chosen race) and their power and has nothing to do with probity or the Creator's demands on us.
Nemos:
Four of the commandments are about our obligations to YHWH (God)
Wysong:
It is ridiculous to assume the Creator is so insecure and ego-driven that it needs our worship. Especially a worship that amounts to propping up human-made religious institutions and the human powers that run them.
and the other six are about our moral obligations to our fellow man (Ie, respecting their rights and property) Most cultures previous to Christianity accepted Slavery as the norm, and did not consider Truth nor Justice Nor Mercy to be virtues in most of human history and in most of human culture.
Wysong:
Slavery, subjugation, and brutalization of people are rampant in the Bible. The claim that non-Biblical cultures are amoral is false.
These commandments formed the foundation of the legal and moral system which changed all of that, and gave us the height of modern western Civilization (which frankly peaked some years ago... and is in decline now after corruption by Jewish elements into all governments pushing for a satanic NWO)
Wysong:
The Bible is not the foundation for our legal and moral system or we would be doing many of the most heinous acts humans have ever done. (See below.) The Bible is not even mentioned in the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. The latter demands freedom of and from religion, not Bible worship. Washington, Paine, Jefferson, and other founders were deists, not Bible worshipers.Freedom, and particularly freedom from religion, released people to explore, become enlightened, create, and enjoy the fruits of their labor. That's what gave rise to technological and industrial advances, not following commands to go to Bible churches and worship an invented god that places power in religious leaders, not people. William Wilberforce and Christian Culture are responsible for the end of slavery, almost exclusively, across the Christian world
Wysong:
The Bible doesn't prohibit slavery, it condones it. (Discussed later)
(it still happens in Islamic and African nations, where slaves are sold on blocks in slave markets.) Not sure which Bible you are reading, but the one I read speaks of freeing us from the doctrines and commandments of men and speaks deeply to the free will o every man over his own soul.
Wysong:
These claims about slavery are not true as will be shown. Moreover, Bible religions demand obedience to their doctrines upon penalty of hell, which is a form of slavery.
Yeshuah, Jesus himself (His true Hebrew name),
Wysong:
Giving gods names, in Hebrew or whatever, is another proof of humanizing them.
went to the poor the lame the blind and the sick, not to the halls of Power, in preaching His ministry of redemption. Since Jesus is claimed to be the same thing as the god of the Bible, he is guilty of all the horrors described below. The only redemption humans need is from following the beliefs of other humans and their religions rather than their own Creator-given conscience, reasoning abilities, and free will. The Bible and the thousands of interpretations and religions derived from it are an attempt to replace indivicual Creator-given free will, conscience, and duty to truth with human power institutions. The god/Jesus deity created by the writers of the Bible not only violates the basic moral rules prohibiting lying, stealing, and murder (some of its own 10 Commandments) but demonstrates how to be cruel and unjust on a scale beyond imagination. Here are some examples of how that plays out in the Bible: Killed all of humanity except 8 adults in a flood as a lesson on morality. The estimated toll was as much as 4 billion people, including innocent infants, children, adults, and animals. (Genesis 6-9) Kills the firstborn humans, including innocent infants, children, and animals of the entire Egyptian nation, and then commanded that the slaughter be celebrated yearly as Passover. (Exodus 12; 14; Romans 9:17)
Nemos:
As a previously lifelong Anti-theist who debated Christians for fun (And never lost)
Wysong:
Ahem, I kinda doubt your opponents would agree with that.
as though it were helping the world (I went to public school and for a time believed that religion – specifically Christianity – was the root of all evil on earth..) I've made this argument many times myself. Why would God be so cruel as to kill so many? Why Babies – Aren't they innocent?
Wysong:
There is nothing more fundamental in truth, ethics, and reason than the fact that babies are innocent.The Bible itself says: "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones." Yet the Bible-god/Jesus kills and maims millions of innocent children, even punishes them for generations because of what their parents did. The hypocrisy is outrageous. I find it hard to grasp that anyone with conscience would argue that babies are not innocent in order to defend a psychopathic Bible-god and its chosen people who slaughter and maim them. Here's an example of the double standard Bible believers are faced with.  ▶️ Click to play video  ▶️ Click to play video First, you said a few basically incorrect things which contradict your statement just previous, how can you say a God whose 10 commandments are specifically against murder, stealing, and lying would violate the basic rules of his own 10 commandments?
Wysong:
That's because the Bible is contradictory, which is another proof that it is not of the Creator. (More examples in my Position #4)
God was Just in all his actions.
Wysong:
That is not true, as the Bible references in this section clearly show.
Surely you do not conflate a death penalty with murder? YHWH is the source of all morality, the source of the biblical Law (which has penalties for sin and evil and the crimes you accused God of above.) and the ultimate source of justice in this world as well, which eventually finds us all – in this life or the next.
Wysong:
Those are religious claims contradicted by the Bible quotes in this section and a full reading of the Bible.Calling murder a death penalty does not make it not murder. Any child or uneducated person could be read the Bible quotes given below and be appalled at the injustice. Try it sometime without coaching them. Secondly, The specific historical events you mentioned above absolutely happened. YHWH, God – wiped out all life on earth except what was on the Ark.
Wysong:
That is not known as a fact. If it were known, so what? Historical facts don't prove divine inspiration.Flood stories in Sumaria, Akkadia, Babylon, and elsewhere predated the Bible account. Ziusudra, Sumerian era, 2,150 BCE Atrahasis, Akkadian era, 1,800 BCE Uta-Napishti, Babylonian era, 1,300 BCE Noah, Israel, 1,000 BCE So the Bible account is not only a lie, it's plagiarism and not historically accurate. But you fail to ask WHY he did such a thing. The scriptures tell us clearly that the world was full of sin, but our world today is full of sin – perhaps even worse. The scriptures tell us violence increased on the earth... but the scriptures also clearly tells us WHY these things happened.
Wysong:
Why, is not an appropriate question when it comes to overt unspeakable psychopathology. If the Bible history is true, Jesus/god killed, maimed, and tortured millions if not billions of women, men, children, and animals. Ginned-up reasons to excuse the horrors do not work for any person exercising reason and conscience.Today, millions have been maimed and killed due to the covid fraud and medical interventions. Should the perpetrators be held accountable or should we excuse them if they tell us why they did it? If a person today steals, rapes, mutilates, murders, and maims infants, children, adults, and animals and provides a reason why, should we hail the psychopath as not only innocent but just and loving? Genesis 6 – The Fallen Angels & The Nephilim. (Matthew 24:36-51; Mark 13:32-37; Luke 12:35-48) 1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. 5And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. Noah's Favor with God 8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. 9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. 10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. Noah Builds the Ark (Genesis 9:1-17) 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it. 17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. 18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. 19And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female. 20Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive. 21And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them. 22Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he. The preflood world was overwhelmed with Giant Cannibals, eating mankind, and beyond that – the sinful teachings of the fallen watcher angels also spread to humans DNA becoming even more corrupted by genetic engineering and splicing animal-human and cross species animal hybrids. Loosely, collectively known as the Nephilim – A word similar to Mutants. These Mutants, made outside of Gods image, by the fallen angels (We know them today as Satan, the adversary) are the children of Satan. Literally in the case of the giants, figuratively in the case of the Nephilim – those who corrupt the temple and change themselves from Human are no longer made in Gods image, no longer have His name written on their DNA numerically and become damned. They are not allowed into the standard afterlife and become demonic wandering spirits in death. (Which is why Demons are almost nonexistence in the preflood scriptures, then suddenly everywhere.)
Wysong:
We are to believe that out of a population of perhaps billions, other than eight, that there were no innocent beings, like animals, infants, and at least some adult humans?The horrors visited on innocents cannot be dismissed as inconsequential, a heuristic organon, rightful judgement, "god's plan," or whatever. God wiped out 4billion (by your estimate) cannibalistic mutant freaks who ruled over mankind, enslaved us, and consumed us as meat. While engaging in Satanic worship of their fallen angel forebears. He saved Noah and his family – because they were "pure in their generations" or as we say today, Genes.
Wysong:
Wysong: All the beings were the Bible-god's creation. That means the Bible-god made some to have purity through the genes the Bible-god gave them. The others the Bible-god made had unpure genes and needed to be slaughtered.No free will anywhere? The Bible-god made robotic pure people and then robotic evil people to be killed? Where's the lesson in any of that, other than the Bible-god shouldn't have made evil beings? The Noah story, even if true, does not justify the Bible-god's callous cruelty to all but one family. This is not to mention that a flood (which I agree probably happened and wrote about it in my 1970 book) far predated the Bible. A big flood has nothing to do with Akkadian, Sumerian, or Hebrew gods. Floods occur because of natural laws. They are used by religionists to instill fear in people who don't do as religious leaders say. Nothing new here. Just humans wanting the power to rule over other humans both then and now. As for Exodus, God was punishing a nation that was brutally enslaving his people (including children) and working them to death. Constantly murdering their own sons, etc to wipe them out. After continual enslavement and ethnic cleansing in the post Joseph/Pre exodus era of Egypt, God punished the Egyptians righteously.
Wysong:
People have always been enslaved. The racist Bible-god murders enslavers when his special race is enslaved.These arguments to justify mass killing and maiming sound like an unscrupulous defense lawyer trying to get a clearly guilty mass murderer off free and clear. Killing innocent children, adults, and animals is not righteous. Justifications for such acts have served as open license for Christian horrors since its beginnings--inquisitions, crusades, witch trials, wars, Jonestown, etc. They are not His people and His mercy is exclusively for His people who follow His rules and morality.
Wysong:
"His" people are named as the Hebrews. Following rules and morality like cutting off boy's foreskins, trimming hair just so, stoning children to death, raping young girls from slaughtered nations, etc. is the path to the Bible-god's mercy? (see below for Bible references)The Creator of the universe is the god of a certain nation on Earth? All the rest--men, women, children, and animals--can be tortured, raped, pillaged, and slaughtered with impunity? A few verses cherry-picked here and there to show the Bible-god to not be an ogre once in awhile, doesn't excuse the horrors. He is the God of a Nation, a nation that has rules and laws, and those who do not follow those codes are not part of that nation, and not citizens, they have no rights, in the legalistic sense, under God.
Wysong:
Wysong: The Bible-god is, therefore, racist, prejudiced, tribal, provincial, unjust, and tyrannical. There is no evidence those are the qualities of the Creator.They are the qualities of the human leaders of a race who write a book naming their race as the Creator's chosen and that set forth rules empowering themselves as religious leaders and justifying slaughtering, pillaging, and enslaving any not of their race. Generally they are enemies oppressing Gods people, however – God protects even them in some situations from retaliation by His people because it is unrighteous. Example, when God told the nations not to invade Mt. Seir.
Wysong:
The Creator is responsible for the existence of everyone. But the Bible-god has a chosen people who just so happen to be those who wrote the Bible naming themselves as "chosen."
The Bible-god says, "18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the LORD." (Leviticus 21)
Nemos:
Numbers 14:2 says –2 And all the children of Israel murmured against Moses and against Aaron: and the whole congregation said unto them, Would God that we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness! Leviticus 21-29 is about honoring the dead and burying them, in Hebrew custom rather than pagan rituals. And about touching dead bodies (which defiles people for a period of time, a biblical sanitation law)
Wysong:
Bible verses corrected and quoted above. Numbers 14:2 is irrelevant to this topic.That Biblical sanitation law makes no sense or all morticians would be dead or diseased by now. You're twisting it sorely out of context to say that YHWH is condemning peoples beards.
Wysong:
That's not what was quoted. Leviticus 19:27 says: "Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." No context is necessary.It's ridiculous that the Bible-god takes time out from running the universe to punish men for hair trimming. And the rest of is discusses the Priestly Levitical tribe's priestly rules, not allowing those with deformations and various specific health issues to be the priests that do the sacrificing. Makes sense, and is not cruel. God simply has standards.
Wysong:
Such standards for a pagan ritual make no sense and are cruel to the innocent animals sacrificed.It's cruel to the innocent humans ostracized because of deformities and susceptibility to diseases over which they had no control. Slicing the throats of animals in sacrifice does nothing to improve the world or the human condition. It's absurd, defamatory, and heretical to pin such nonsense on the Creator. Condemned victims for ten generations if they have mutilated sex organs or are of illegitimate birth. (Deuteronomy 23:1-)
Nemos:
It is a horrible sin to have a child outside of wedlock because of the damage it does to the children, and therefore to society as well, and while modern society has greatly relaxed its views on sexually promiscuous behavior, we are certainly reaping the harvest in our current world of broken families, fleshful and lustful materialistic focuses, and breakdown of culture.A little slut shaming is good for mankind, and for the women that might be destroyed by such behavior as well. I can only speak from my personal experience, as a child of a broken home. My mother and Father divorced when I was 1. I never knew a normal relationship with either of them. My mother became a drug addicted prostitute and drug my siblings along for the ride. My father was a workaholic and I barely know the man. I wish someone had slut shamed my mother just once and maybe none of that had to have happened. Maybe my brother wouldn't be constantly screaming "I want to die" as he finally detoxes from heroin on my couch. I don't know what might have been. But I know the pain of being the baby in that arrangement, and I suspect Gods laws around such things are, even if difficult for us to understand at times, for our own good.
Wysong:
I am sorry to hear about those circumstances. You can thank the secular state for their modicum of decency and justice that you were not condemned for ten generations as the pretend Bible-god would have done.
Kills people for making an ointment, burning incense, taking a census (75,000 slaughtered), not cutting the ends of young boys' penises off, or eating fat. (Exodus 30:33; 2 Chronicles 26:19-;1Chronicles 21; Torah) Here the Bible-god kills people who don't mutilate a boy's sex organs. If they do mutilation, the boy will be condemned for ten generations. (Deuteronomy 23:1,2) The absurdity speaks for itself. (Mutilation is any alteration of the body from its natural state that jeopardizes function and health. Circumcision qualifies [caution--graphic pictures] despite the money-driven corrupt religious and medical establishments claiming otherwise.)
Nemos:
There are many rules that may not make sense at first to us – The dietary laws are fairly simple, most of those animals that are "unclean" to eat spread or harbor or incubate zoonotic (cross species) disease, or eat their own poop, which concentrates toxins in the flesh. Modern "medicine" and chemical saturation has masked the problem, but even today Pork etc are huge issues with diseases around the world. Also Parasites are huge in those non biblical diets as well. In the old world, it would have been even more pronounced as the diseases had fewer options for the poor to treat.
Wysong:
Eating poop does not concentrate toxins in the flesh. Provide proof. Some animals do this coprophagy for the probiotic health benefits it provides.The rest of this defense of Bible dietary laws is also not scientifically or medically true. All animals pose such threats. In fact, all foods can pose such threats. Our government puts people in prison for protesting. God killed a few
Wysong:
How many is a few? The Bible-god usually doesn't mess around with a few, it likes, thousands, millions, and billions dead or maimed. One is enough to convict the Bible-god.
throughout scripture for profaning His Holy places. I think Gods approach actually makes more sense than America's, here. Holy things are not meant to be mocked, but are serious. And about serious issues such as people escaping the kind of pain I mentioned above as a result of basic sinful stupidity. If death is a penalty for some people who profane and mock God (whom knows their hearts and souls) then I can live with that, no problem.
Wysong:
So what if he knows their hearts and souls? People were created with free will and the ability to correct wrongdoing.If the Bible-god knows all of our hearts and souls at all times, including now, there would be slaughtering of the bad going on right now just like back then. Yet we don't see that happening to know if Bible believers would really be able to "live with that, no problem." Some things are meant to be kept sacred. In our modern world of materialism and postmodernism, its the exact opposite – which is the better choice?
Wysong:
The Bible-god's approach is closer to fundamentalist Islam than to justice and reason. The better choice is not to kill people for picayune infractions of nonsense laws. Evidently, the Bible-god hasn't figured that out.
Forced innocent children to wander and die in a wilderness for forty years because of the sins of parents. (Numbers 14:33)
Nemos:
Children are not innocent of the sins of their parents. Sins carry over genetically, it has been proven with modern epigenetics that Murder, as one example, leaves a genetic scar which carries on to the offspring of the murderer. Which itself leaves them more open to violence. Genetics are incredibly important. God works through such mechanisms. Scripture tells us the sins of the father pass on to the son. It is a warning not to sin and hurt your own offspring. Because in the grand scheme of things its all eternal, your offspring are a part of you, good and bad. The way to protect them is to follow YHWHs law zealously, and God blesses your genetics for 1000 generations.
Wysong:
It is the Bible-god who is condemning the children for forty years, not epigenetics. Moreover, forty years does not erase epigenetic effects.The innocence of a child is inherent regardless of the parents. Young children are not capable of making informed or conscience-driven decisions. Commands killing unbelievers. (Deuteronomy 13; 2 Kings 10)
Nemos:
Your interpretation is stretching the grammar.. this is in reference to false prophets actively attempting to lead YHWH's people away from Him and into sin, for which the penalty is death. Rightly so. Magicians and Charlatans, etc.
Wysong:
The grammar is clear: kill unbelievers. Killing and slaughter, heads in piles, bears commanded to rip apart young boys, etc. This is totally consistent with the rapacious killing appetite of the Bible-god and its chosen obedient people.Also, what about the respect for free will you argue the Bible and Christianity promote? Here, the Bible-god commands the killing of anyone who does not believe a certain way and does not obey rules that violate conscience, morality, and reason. Condemned to leprosy, children, their children, and a king who burned incense. (2 Chronicles 26:19-)
Nemos:
See above on Gods laws dealing with Holy and Sacred places and objects.
Wysong:
Making places and objects (including the Bible) holy is idolatry. Idolatry is no justification for the horrors visited upon children. ⌕ Click to enlarge Orders that young boys who disobey or curse their parents be stoned to death. (Exodus 21:17; Deuteronomy 21:18-21)
Nemos:
Would you rather governments be the final arbiters of justice in regards to our children? Or us?
Wysong:
That isn't the choice being given in the Bible. The Bible-god commands stoning to death children who disobey or curse. There is no choice.Such an act would be psychopathically insane and proves the Bible-god is not the Creator. Obviously no sane parent wants to kill their own children, but what if your son was Bill Gates? It would be about time to have a talk with the elders of your local village at this point.
Wysong:
Bill Gates is not a child. If he were, he should not be stoned to death for disobedience or cursing. Even a modicum of decency and morality forces this conclusion.
Starved people, opened the earth to swallow them when they desired to eat, and then sent a plague to kill 14,700 more who complained about it. (Numbers 16) Killed people for working or gathering sticks on the Sabbath, and for profaning it. (Numbers 15:32-36: Exodus 31:14,15) Induced snakes to bite people and sent bears out of the woods to tear apart forty-two children who called a man "baldhead." ( 2 Kings 2:23,24)
Nemos:
Jeremiah 18:8 says "18 When I would comfort myself against sorrow, my heart is faint in me." Re-check your verses.As for the children, I think we can logically deduce the children were assaulting the elder man, probably throwing stones and rocks. How else would a prophet of a Just God curse children, and who else could 2 bears kill 42 children? The children, upon seeing bears, would have scattered under normal circumstances so that only a few would have been mauled. Even in the heart of a small town in Alaska a polar bear only was able to kill a few people before being stopped by locals recently, for example. two bears can't catch 42 kids under normal circumstances, it would be impossible.
Wysong:
Omitted the Jeremiah error.The 2Kings' quote is clear in saying what it does. Agreed it does not make sense in any respect, just like most of the Bible doesn't. Sent a famine that forced people to eat their children, and beheaded seventy innocent sons and put their heads in a pile as a lesson. (2 Kings 6:28-)
Nemos:
Context, again, is king – if you actually read the passage this is the result of a seige by an enemy. The very King of Israel himself tore off his clothes and wore sackcloth upon hearing this womans story."The Siege and Famine of Samaria 24And it came to pass after this, that Benhadad king of Syria gathered all his host, and went up, and besieged Samaria. 25And there was a great famine in Samaria: and, behold, they besieged it, until an ass's head was sold for fourscore pieces of silver, and the fourth part of a cab of dove's dung for five pieces of silver. 26And as the king of Israel was passing by upon the wall, there cried a woman unto him, saying, Help, my lord, O king. 27And he said, If the LORD do not help thee, whence shall I help thee? out of the barnfloor, or out of the winepress? 28And the king said unto her, What aileth thee? And she answered, This woman said unto me, Give thy son, that we may eat him to day, and we will eat my son to morrow. 29So we boiled my son, and did eat him: and I said unto her on the next day, Give thy son, that we may eat him: and she hath hid her son. 30And it came to pass, when the king heard the words of the woman, that he rent his clothes; and he passed by upon the wall, and the people looked, and, behold, he had sackcloth within upon his flesh. 31Then he said, God do so and more also to me, if the head of Elisha the son of Shaphat shall stand on him this day." ~2Kings6
Wysong:
Context does not justify the horrors the Bible-god was responsible for.
Tells men to kill their wives (even if pregnant), children, and friends if they disagree with them on religion, commands no mercy be given, and is wrathful if lives are spared. (Deuteronomy 13:6-; Exodus 32:27)
Nemos:
"And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the Lord thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage."Same as false prophets. To try to willfully turn people away from YHWH deserves death by YHWHs laws. This is an enticement which ends up with eternal damnation, its serious stuff.
Wysong:
It's serious proof the Bible demands beliefs that are nonsense and psychopathic and that the Bible-god is not the Creator.
Condoned Jael lying to a man and driving a tent peg into the man's temple while he slept. (Judges 4:17-21)
Nemos:
This was an enemy General, in the middle of a war. Who wouldn't? Brave woman, saved many lives.
Wysong:
Depends on the reason for the war. But the point here is that lying was condoned by the Bible-god. The Creator, on the other hand, is truth.
Is partial to one race and keeps them in good graces if they commit murder, bash babies to the ground, and rip open pregnant women. (Exodus 22:20; Hosea 13:16; Joshua 10:1-42; 1 Samuel 15:3)
Nemos:
"thou shalt not commit murder" I suggest you re-read those within context.
Wysong:
Context does not justify murderous acts.
Condones the practice of incest, adultery, genocide, sexism, keeping concubines (300 for Solomon), keeping and beating slaves (with the only limitation being to not injure their eyes or teeth). (Genesis 19; 20; 28; 29; Exodus 21; . . . throughout Torah)
Nemos:
"Thou shalt not commit adultery" "Thou shalt not commit murder" Nothing against numerous wives. Solomon was a sinner whose problem was women which caused him to fall away from God and become a pagan, sacrificing to other Gods.Need I remind you that Christians ended, but did not invent, slavery? Slavery was commonplace in the ancient world – when your neighbor tribe got together and attacked you, and you somehow survived, you didn't give them their weapons back and let them go. You either A. Killed them, or B. Put them to work so they weren't a burden. YHWH is such a righteous God, he has commandments even of how you treat these prisoners of war. Do we not demand good treatment of POWs in modern conventional warfare today? (Not that we get it mind you...) Yet another example of his merciful and just nature.
Wysong:
There is no justice and mercy in those passages. There is the opposite. There is also nothing there forbidding slavery.In fact, the Bible-god's chosen people were told to make war on those not willing to be enslaved. Deuteronomy 20:10-13. Also, Abraham had female slaves. Genesis 20:14,17. Priests can buy slaves from neighboring nations, feed those born in their houses, bequeath them to their children, and enslave them for life. Leviticus 22:11;25: 44,46 Slavery has abated in some places in the world due to secular state interventions by people engaging their Creator-given conscience, empathy, and reasoning abilities, not due to Bible-based religions. Commands the killing of adulterers and non-virgins brought to marriage. (Deuteronomy 22:20-)
Nemos:
Deadbeat dads aren't popular these days either, in extreme cases Biblical law calls for death penalty. It keeps the herd holy, but when we began a cultural degradation into "acceptance of diversity" instead of the previous cultural historical norm of "Oppose Evil", we took the very slippery slope into current postmodernist thinking, open grooming of children in media, entertainment, and schools – funded by government, and worse. Now we live in a shithole of sin. I call it the Sin War. Frankly, I'd rather have kept the death penalty for perverts, groomers, etc. And maybe in our modern thinking the death penalty for cheating is too much, but then again – look at the price we've paid culturally for acceptance and tolerance of every evil and betrayal. We have the right to think it's a bit much, but strictly speaking of morals – killing evil is righteous.How many cries of passion each year are reported over cheating? How much violence, drama, and problems are associated with it? Not to mention the broken families, impacted children, etc. Many of those children of single moms will end up abused sexually. I'm not saying I think its not harsh, I am saying those crimes and problems would not exist if we followed YHWHs law: "If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel."
Wysong:
Agree on the sad state of the world. Disagree on the justice of the above passage and that if implemented our problems would be solved.People who do things that violate their Creator-given conscience will find that such acts weigh heavily on them over time and this weight can serve to help them grow to become better people--our purpose in this Earth life. Religious rules and laws, even if followed to a tee, do nothing to help people grow. Inbstead, religions make people dependent, passive, single-minded, close-minded, expectant, intellectually lazy, and dangerous if, in the case of the Bible, they actually do what its god/Jesus demands. Commanded Jews to slaughter entire cities and to steal all their goods, kill and maim the animals, but keep alive the young virgin maidens to take home to rape. (Deuteronomy 2:34; 3:6; 13; Judges 21; Numbers 31)
Nemos:
If men had committed war or rape of a Hebrew women, the city of men were put to death sometimes, but generally when you see God wiping out entire tribes, its because they are the descendants of the Nephilim giants. To abandon the innocent women after the men were killed would be a fate worse than death in that time period in most of the world. Unless they were Nephilim. Then it was a total wipeout.
Wysong:
Nephilim, like context, does not justify slaughtering a civilization and then taking the young girls home to rape.
The Bible-god equates love with having himself in the form of Jesus sacrificially tortured to death as in preceding pagan religions. Guilt for this is collectivized by demanding that all people be responsible for the torture that was necessary to make amends for an original sin for which all humans but Adam and Eve had no part, but for which all of humanity is condemned to eternal torture in hell if they don't agree. (Genesis 3; Romans 5:12,14;1John 1:8-10).
Nemos:
YHWH Respects free will to such an extent, that when he sought to remind His people of Him and write his law upon their hearts and memories,
Wysong:
The Bible-god does the opposite of respecting free will as all the above passages prove.If the Bible-god's law is written on hearts and memories, why the need for a book that no two people can read and get the same message from? he did so through the most human act of all.
Wysong:
The Bible-god can act human since humans created it. The Creator is not human.
One guaranteed to reach all but the hardest and coldest of hearts – A man dying a horrible death to save his people.
Wysong:
This proves the Bible-god is a human god. A person being crucified saves nobody, other than serving as a warning to not do whatever the crucified person did to warrant the death and to create a demand for true justice.
A story so impactful it still brings people to tears 2000 years later. I'm one as I write this.
Wysong:
Emotion proves nothing. Truth, on the other hand, brings a contentment to the spirit that is unmatched. That's because the Creator is truth and our purpose is to get as close to that truth as possible.
Only the Jews and Romans were responsible for His death, but we are all part of Adam and Eve, and their sin is imprinted on our genetics and souls.
Wysong:
Belief in the Jesus savior doctrine only does one thing, create reliance on man-made religions to "save" us and empower religious institutions that have brought more harm and tears to humans than any other human invention.It's revealing that the "original sin" we are all supposedly guilty of is the result of our progenitors, Adam and Eve, eating fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In other words, the writers of the Bible did not want people to decide what is good and bad using their Creator-given conscience, reason, and free will. Instead, they invented a story to make people look to the Bible writers' man-made god religion and its leaders for orders on what to do or not. Failure of the first humans to obey the forbidden fruit command--the prohibition to decide for yourself what is right and wrong--is a sin so great that it is embedded into all of humanity through all time. So, killing, stealing, lying, raping are not the ultimate sins. No, deciding for yourself what is right or wrong is! The only way to rid ourselves of that sin and avoid eternal hell (something only a psychopath could invent) is to be "saved." That just so happens to mean following religious leaders and believing in the books they write and the savior they invent. But if one innocent man can condemn all mankind, one innocent man's death can redeem it.
Wysong:
It's impossible for one person to condemn the spiritual merit of all people or one man to redeem them. Prove otherwise.Innocent "man"? Jesus is supposedly the same as YHWH, the Bible mass-murderer. But it's a choice, because of loving creator bestowed us with Free Will,
Wysong:
Yes, the Creator gave us free will but the Bible-god takes it away by telling us that it is a sin to individually have knowledge of good and evil-- eat of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil." Instead, we are to surrender our free will and defer to Bible religious leaders telling us what we should and should not do.
He continually tries to woo us back to him through miracles, wonders, healings, protections from war and famine and natural disaster, etc.
Wysong:
Woo us to relinquish free will, i.e., knowledge of good and evil, and rather follow religious leaders is the evident plan.The Bible-god wants to convince us by performing magic tricks? More compelling would be basic decency. Moreover, nobody is being wooed through acts such as you mentioned for which there is no proof of Bible-god causation. But the greatest act of all was the sacrifice of His own human son to tell us He loves us and we should come back to Him.
Wysong:
Nobody and nothing has ever been saved by pagan sacrifice rituals as in the Bible and in the Jesus mythology.
All our sorrows come from being apart from Him and His laws.
Wysong:
Thousands of years of sorrows have resulted from the thousands of religions trying to follow a human-made Bible.Belief and faith in man-made Bible religions, and anything else for that matter that is not true, rather than fulfilling our duty to truth (knowledge of good and evil) is what separates us from the source of truth, the Creator. I think we can see that you lack context and an in depth study of the WHYs behind these WHATs you speak against so strongly. It helped me a lot. Plainly speaking, you don't know what you speak of! It is indeed true that this message has been attacked more than any other throughout human history, and we've seen that in our own era as well – with the Elite's Cultural Sinwar against Christians and the Christian values western society were built upon. Like the Abolition of Slavery, Which of course upset the Jewish slavemasters and slaveship owners in the Democrat party (The party of slavery, mind you.) People have died preserving this information, been burnt en masse at the stake with their painstakingly handcopied scriptures were tied around their necks to burn with them. This message has been persecuted by those in power, Especially by the Pagan Controlled Opposition Satanic Church of Rome – Catholicism. You will not find me defending the history of the Catholic Church, an entity that was purely a pagan attempt to infiltrate and corrupt/monopolize the Christian message a few hundred years After Christ. In essence, Pagan Emperor Constantine formed a Christian Church and Outlawed any form of other Christianity (By pain of Death) other than the Nicean form, which promoted pagan Easter and many other forms of early infiltration of Doctrine which have nothing to do with the Bible – Today they are obsessed with Mariolatry and consuming other religions to form a NWO one world religion like Chrislam) to conflate Christianity with Catholicism historically would impugn the innocent with the horrendous and unending crimes of the Roman Church, and to ignore historical atrocities such as the Dark Ages (The Church killing Christians for reading the bible) and constant historical witch hunts which were a pretext by Rome to murder Christians – something they have a history of doing even before forming a false Church, as far back as Nero.  ⌕ Click to enlarge  ⌕ Click to enlarge
Wysong:
Speaking of knowing what you are talking about, no Bible apologist can know what they are talking about since there are no original copies of their god-Bible.As for Catholics being solely to blame for religions acting out what the Bible says, Protestants are guilty of the same. Jonestown comes to mind and all the misdeeds of the thousands of Bible-believing Christian religions. Following these Bible lessons of outrageous cruelty, religions have justified such horror since the time that they, not the Creator, wrote the book.  ⌕ Click to enlarge
Nemos:
Allow me to use your own graphic to make my point, (figure 184 above) the most urgently prosecuted by the Church were those who disagreed with its doctrines or quite simply, read the bible for themselves. These "heretics" were the first in line for such tools of torture you show above and impugn to all Christians. You inadvertently blame the victim in this.
Wysong:
What you describe is exactly like the Bible-god is described as doing to unbelievers. So why would Catholics and all Bible-based religions not emulate this model? Answer: They would--if the secular state didn't prevent it.
You can see a documentary covering this "pilgrim church" (the real followers of Christ) throughout history here.
Wysong:
To follow Christ/YHWH means you stone to death your disobedient children, kill unbelievers, rape young girls you take home after you slaughter a people, etc.The foundation of Catholics and all Christian religions is the Bible and they all have been party to untold human misery because the Bible-god is all in on that. People were prevented from reading the Bible because the hierarchy wanted dibs on the god that claimed to be there and be the sole dispensary of that invented god's words. When people finally got access to it, nothing changed. Acting out what the Bible demands and models still results in horrors.  ⌕ Click to enlarge Modern Catholicism The Papacy (And therefore unholy Catholic Church of Rome) has no legitimate claim to the authority of the apostles, or Christ. It's all a lie and fake news in history. See: Was Peter The Rock Upon Which the Church Was Built? Doctrines of Men: RESOLVED  ⌕ Click to enlarge The Catholic Church (Or Church of Rome) was the Pagan Emperor approved bishops convening to delete 1/3 of the Bible as the ancients knew it. The Ethiopian Canon still includes them, oldest on earth. They are responsible for censoring the true bible and forcing people into intermediary salvation middlemen, fact checking (Like Facebook fact checks for fake news...deceptively and with an agenda) and killing anyone who disagreed with them. ...The long-held claim that the Roman Catholic Church was the only church which never changed is not supported by church history not even Roman Catholic history. How sad to realize that this false claim influenced so many to join or to stay in this false church which actually is the product of centuries of changes. Most of these changes came as a result of yielding to heathen customs and practices which were subsequently incorporated into Roman Catholic teachings and worship. The following is a partial list of heathen, unscriptural practices which became a part of Roman Catholic dogma over a period of seventeen centuries. Some of the dates given are approximate. In many cases, these heresies were even debated for years before being given the status of required beliefs: 300 AD Prayers for the dead 300 AD Making the sign of the cross 375 AD Veneration of angels & dead saints 375 AD Use of images in worship 394 AD The Mass as a daily celebration 431 AD Exaltation of Mary with term "Mother of God" applied at Council of Ephesus 526 AD Extreme Unction (Last Rites) 593 AD Doctrine of Purgatory – Gregory 600 AD Prayers to Mary & dead saints 786 AD Worship of cross, images & relics 995 AD Canonization of dead saints 1079 AD Celibacy of priesthood 1090 AD The Rosary 1190 AD Indulgences 1215 AD Transubstantiation – Innocent III 1215 AD Auricular Confession of sins to a priest 1220 AD Adoration of the wafer (Host) 1414 AD Cup forbidden to the people at communion 1439 AD Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma 1439 AD The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed 1545 AD Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent 1546 AD Apocryphal books added to Bible 1854 AD Immaculate Conception of Mary 1870 AD Infallibility of pope in matters of faith and morals claimed by Vatican Council 1950 AD Assumption of Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven after her death) 1965 AD Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church Although some of the preceding Roman Catholic heresies are now being questioned by many, both inside and outside the church, none have been officially repudiated and all continue to be practiced by millions of Catholics around the world. The urgent need today is for Roman Catholics; yes, and all who claim to be Christians, to examine their own beliefs and the teachings of their churches by the only sure standard – the Bible. Whatever contradicts, adds to or subtracts from the sixty-six books of the Old and the New Testaments, is error no matter how many may cling to it. Roman Catholics who read the Bible will soon discover that many Catholic teachings and practices are specifically forbidden by Jesus Christ Himself. Note carefully the following warnings given by the Lord Jesus Christ to the religious leaders of His day concerning vain worship, vain tradition and vain repetitions. All of these are particularly applicable to Roman Catholicism today. Vain worship: In Matthew 15:8-9, Jesus said, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the command men of men." All worship is indeed vain when it is based upon the commandments of men rather than the Word of God. Vain tradition: In Matthew 15:6b, Jesus said, "Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. " [Note: Valid tradition is based upon Scripture and confirms it. Vain tradition is based upon man's teachings and violates it. In Roman Catholicism, tradition is consistently elevated above the Scripture which results in vain worship (no matter how sincere) and makes the commandment of God of no effect – a very serious matter.]  ⌕ Click to enlarge
Wysong:
There is no original Bible that true Christians discovered and followed.Moreover, all Bibles are filled with pagan beliefs. For example, the flood story predated the Bible writers and the central character of the New Testament, Jesus, was modeled after numerous precursor pagan gods. Detailed in my #5 position. Any person who has taken control of their Creator-given mind and conscience would be horrified by killing, maiming, and torturing innocent babies, children, adults, and animals. Such gruesomeness is not consistent with even human standards of ethics, morality, and justice, let alone the origin of those virtues, the Creator. Reducing the Creator to religions and holy books is idolatry, the worship of human-made objects, including human-made books. ⌕ Click to enlarge Justifying and even applauding horrific indefensible acts described in the Bible, even teaching them to children in Bible schools, epitomizes heresy and sacrilege. It defames, not honors, the Creator. The Bible turns thinking people of conscience away from the true Creator, the very source of justice, truth, kindness, forgiveness, and empathy. So, not only is it unreasonable to claim the Creator wrote a book, the Bible itself shows it could not be of the Creator.
Nemos:
Fundamentally speaking – a people must have a concrete anchored (fixed) moral compass
Wysong:
That compass is our Creator-given conscience and reasoning ability.We don't need a Bible rule book fed to us to follow as if we are children. We are here to exercise our free will and conscience. In doing so we discover how best to be better souls by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. or they fall for generational propaganda like the transgender fad of the postmodernist, subjectivist thinking where there is no such thing as good or evil – only perspective.
Nemos:
Does the Bible provide ethical, moral, and justice guidance?Famously so, for example, most people in the world have heard the Gospel message and have heard about Gods eternal legal/moral code – The Lawbooks given us by Moses.
Wysong:
Less than a third of the world is Christian and few of those have actually read the Bible. Most of the world has either not read or even heard of the Bible. That does not condemn them to evil such as the Christian world has been party to.
This extensive yet simple (by modern contrast) legal code of just over 600 laws (iirc) has formed the basis of modern western legal systems.
Wysong:
The Bible is not mentioned in America’s founding documents nor does it impact its legal system. Thank goodness for that or our legal system would justify horrendous acts, like stoning disobedient children to death, and other atrocities and injustices enumerated in this topic.
For example, Christians like William Wilberforce are largely responsible for the end of historical slavery in the modern era. (The jewish deep state have reversed this, turning us all into "wage slaves" using the central banking system, but even this is hidden.)
Wysong:
Slavery is justified by the Bible: “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ.” (Peter 2:18: ) Slavery has been a part of Christianity since its early Roman beginnings. People following Christian religions adhere to religious commands (including tithing of wages = “wage slaves”) upon threat of eternal torture in hell. That’s the ultimate slavery. The Bible Belt in America was a vehement and tenacious proponent of slavery. Jews were the originators of the Bible which names them as the “chosen race” entitling them to enslave the rest of humanity.
Virtues such as Truth and Mercy were not even considered important qualities, much less virtues, in the ancient pre Christ world.
Wysong:
The duty to truth and mercy is inherent in human conscienceIt is the praxis of all civilizations or civilization would not be possible. The Bible quotes above prove the Bible demands and condones horrific evils up to the present day, the opposite of truth and mercy. More detailed here. A world rule by iron fisted tyrants and "god kings" who often demanded human sacrifice and other evils.
Wysong:
The early Christian church was centered on iron-fisted tyrants in the line of Roman pope god-kings and the rest of the Christian hierarchy. The Christian Crusades, Inquisitions, witch trials, and countless wars killing, torturing, and maiming millions throughout Christian history prove the tyranny.Animal and human sacrifice is a Bible theme. Cruel animal sacrifice was demanded by the god of the Bible. Jesus, thought by Christians to be the same as the god of the Bible, was sacrificed and is the very foundation of Christianity.  ⌕ Click to enlarge This makes the god of the Bible not only a party to sacrifice, but an author, actor, and victim of it (as if that makes any sense). Christians worldwide celebrate sacrifice every time they symbolically eat Jesus when taking Communion or bread and wine (Jesus’ flesh and blood) commemorating Jesus’ command to do so. Mathew 26: 26-28 Much of the natural rights basis we take for granted in our US Constitution is derived from the biblical moral and legal system.
Wysong:
Incorrect and nonsensical based upon the information presented above. The ethics and morality presented in the Bible are the coup de grace to the notion that the Creator of the universe had any part in the writing of the Bible. ⌕ Click to enlarge More random windows into the nature and acts of the Bible-god
 ⌕ Click to enlarge
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